09:26		Started talking in webapps on Wednesday 25/04/2007 09:26:50 AM
		Room topic is: Web applications | The chat about the <video> element is TODAY! \o/. Details at http://my.opera.com/WebApplications/blog/show.dml/943945
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10:50	aleksanteri	\o/ host is here
10:51	Remco
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	EspenAO	Hello all
	Remco	More Opera people
10:52	aleksanteri	hey babox
	babox	hi aleksanteri
	andyo	Opera for president!
	profit	Of what?..
10:53	Remco	Everything of course
10:54	profit	Opera that has taken over the world... Dreams, dreams..
	aleksanteri	lol
	nicomen	better than nightmares
	aleksanteri	woo 5 minutes to go
10:55	profit	Nighmare for MS ..
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	aleksanteri	5 minutes is too much
10:56		Gautam sets user mode +o: olli is now a room operator
10:57	Aux	<:
	Aux	I made a mess of my friend in Q3
10:58	Aux	so now I can talk (:
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10:59	ReWiz	just another post about Opera-video: http://my.opera.com/ResearchWizard/blog/experimental-opera-video-build-with-native-ogg-theora-support
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	aleksanteri	welcome Håkon
	sil	aha, the man of the hour arrives.
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	howcome	So, we all agree then, video is important?
	aleksanteri	yep
	andyo
11:00	sil	yes.
	howcome	Good!
	Aux	and we need slider to move video forward and backward (:
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	howcome	re. slider, yes. Should it be one of the basic widgets that you can get withoug porgramming JavaScript?
11:01	sil	I'd say to not embed a slider, because then it's more difficult to theme later, personally.
	andyo	I agree
	aleksanteri	yeah me too
11:02	sil	Although the big problem here is getting everyone to agree on a format, as per our huge discussion on the whatwg list
	howcome	The spec currently states: "User agents may provide controls to affect playback of the media resource (e.g. play, pause, seeking, and volume controls),..."
	sil	howcome: I thought "may" was a weird thing to say there, because that means that a site designer can't know whether the browser's already provided controls or whether she has to do it herself
	ReWiz	The slider shout either be basic or with simple (predefined) JS.
11:03	howcome	Re format: yes, that's the probem.
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	Aux	ooh!
	Aux	attributes!
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	aleksanteri	hello runeh
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	Aux	<video type="video" src="movie.ogg" />
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	Aux	<video type="play_button" />
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	Aux	and so on
	Aux	and CSS will help us!
11:04	Aux	<video type="slider_bar"><video type="slider" /></video> (:
	Aux	something like that
	howcome	CSS is part of the picture. One of the reasons why I want a new <video> tag instead of <object> is that I'd like to say: video { display: none }
11:05	sil	Aux: then it's not a <video> element, though; it's a whole series of <video> elements each of which provides a different widget, at which point you're surely just reinventing HTML5.
	aleksanteri	<input type="range">
	Aux	input maybe (:
	aleksanteri	/> *
	Aux	or <videocontrol type="blabla" />
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	howcome	What to people think of Ogg Theora? Have you used it?
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	Aux	<videocontrol type="foo" for="bar" />
	Aux	just like <label>
	aleksanteri	yeah that'd work too
	aleksanteri	howcome: i'd say no
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11:06	howcome	NO?
	Aux	NO!
	sil	Ogg's good for on-the-web video, reasonably sized, and most importantly *can* be implemented anywhere (Apple's concerns about submarine patents not withstanding)
	aleksanteri	hm
	Aux	video should be ALLWAYS full screen
	Aux	ALWAYS porn
	Orcinus	object[type^="video"] { display: none; }
	Aux	and nonskipable
	Aux	(:
	aleksanteri	Aux: what about all those coolio documentatiories? =( (ok i admit i don't watch documentatiories on the web)
11:07	howcome	Orcinus: your solution depen on people remembering the attribute -- often they don't
	Aux	me too
	sil	There isn't an equivalent format that could even theoretically go into all browsers, which means that if we "let the market decide" we'll end up with mp4 or wmv and some people will be left out in the cold.
	Orcinus	howcome: that's not really an excuse
	aleksanteri	hmmm on that point ogg should be put
	Aux	hmmm...
	ReWiz	howcome: With my tests of Opera-video I experienced some performance issues with Ogg Theora
	Aux	since everyone is just crazy about XML then why not make XML-based video?
11:08	howcome	Orincus, you mean real world experiece shouldn't be taken into account
	Aux	with binary stream encoded as HTML entities (:
	Orcinus	The fact that people still like to code HTML and CSS by hand is something the original authors of the specs did not expect. These things were meant to be easy for a program to create based on user's desires.
	Remco	ReWiz: I've seen that here too, I couldn't even play the abba video without it being choppy
	howcome	ReWiz: people have reported performance issues, but our developers don't agree. Could you elaborate?
11:09	Remco	100% does the trick here
	Remco	*CPU
	ReWiz	howcome: uses pretty high CPU, even with being not fullscreen
	howcome	Orincus: you're right, TimBL thought we'd all be using high-levele editors. They don't, though.
	aleksanteri	yeah
	andyo	howcome: will there be a "video-build" for linux any time soon?
	ReWiz	howcome: I made some remarks about this in my post
	Orcinus	howcome: Creating new elements doesn't make that goal any easier
	howcome	ReWiz: have you compared it with VLC's CPU usage?
11:10	howcome	ReWiz, could you send the URL to your post?
	Remco	http://my.opera.com/ResearchWizard/blog/experimental-opera-video-build-with-native-ogg-theora-support
	Remco	That one
	ReWiz	howcome: Yes, while Opera was pretty bad VLC did a better job still using pretty high CPU
	ReWiz	Remco: thanks
11:11	howcome	andyo: I'd like to get a linux build out -- I've just installed Ununtu Feisty on the machine I'm typing this on...
	andyo
	howcome	Remco: great post!
11:12	ReWiz	howcome: thanks
	howcome	Any views on Dirac?
	profit	howcome, Experimental video build of Opera used a huge SDL framwork for playing Ogg. Are you playing to implement codecs for Ogg (theora) of your own, or going to keep on with SDL ?
11:13	sil	howcome: pretty brave depending on something that ain't ready yet. GStreamer's got a reasonable implementation in Schroedinger, so there are implementations out there, but they haven't finished optimising it yet afaik?
	andyo	howcome: when, do you think, can we expect <video> in opera? v.10?
	howcome	Also, I'd like to discuss how we can get more Ogg content out there. It's great that Wikipedia has chosen it. When people can't see Wikipedia in their browser, they may reconsider.
11:14	Aux	khm, we have a blog with short movies in Latvia
	Kleevah	howcome: make a youtube ripoff...
	Aux	and we may use ogg
	Aux	right now it is FLV
	andyo	yes.. wikipedia will be perfect for this.. I personally love that they have ogg on their pages
	Aux	the question is: is OGG smaller then FLV?
	howcome	I leave it our implementors to decide which codes to use and how to wrap i up. I'm more interested in the markup and formats myself. It's a big enough job in itself
11:15	ReWiz	One small thing would be video-albums with my.opera.com
	sil	howcome: talk to YouTube is one way to do it, certainly. There's another video site (can't remember the name! begins in b!) which uses FLV but also makes theora available.
	Aux	nice idea ReWiz
	Aux	video blogging at my.opera.com - nice!
	profit	Hmm, AFAIK SDL is OpenSource, and can have some limititationsd about using it in closed source (not sure)..
11:16	sil	profit: nope, SDL is LGPL licenced, so using it in closed source products is OK.
	profit	I thought that was the reason why you LGPLed that build..
	profit	Aha.. See know.
	howcome	andyo: Re: <video> in opera: we've been very clear that our support for <video> is experimental. Also, the spec has changed since we did our initial implementation. We'll continue talking to Mozilla and others to build support. I don't know when we will be shipping.
	andyo	ok
11:17	Aux	howcome: will there be any possibility for some effects on video like CSS opacity and so on?
	Remco	The example already has that
11:18	andyo	wow way cool
		profit is much more interested about combining video with SVG..
	sil	howcome: difficult to know whether we need <video> support in browsers first or video out there to view. I'm inclined to say get support in browsers (at least somehow) first, so then sites using <video> can say "install XYZ to get these videos easily"
	profit	Or canvas, maybe..
	howcome	We have to be careful not to ship things until there is rough consensus. Otherwise, people could mistake us for being MS
		sil laughs
	andyo	haha
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	howcome	I can see the use of opacity. Anything else?
	Aux	Opera Corporation have taken over the world, everyone is obliged to watch OGG (:
	Aux	khm, does OGG support semi-transparent areas?
	Aux	that would bevery nice (:
11:20	sil	clipping might be useful.
	andyo	skewing!
	Aux	built-in photoshop?
	Aux	<:
	profit	SVG-filters!..
	aleksanteri	hey albertrosa
	aleksanteri	yeah! SVG!!
	olli	<blink><video src="damer.ogg#></blink> would this work? hmm
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11:21	howcome	profit: Yes, we are supporting video in SVG as well
	Aux	<marquee><video src="damer.ogg#></marquee> (:
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	Guille	howcome: are you planning to recommend a ogg format to the audio element too?
		profit sees a whole new front for flashing, blinking and annoying ads here..
	aleksanteri	hi Mitchman
	olli	profit: yeah
	aleksanteri	Gautam: you forgot the main one
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	andyo	profit: content-blocking ftw
	Kleevah	vorbis? are there others?
11:22	sil	Kleevah: flac.
	howcome	Guille: the HTML5 spec says: User agents should support Ogg Theora video and Ogg Vorbis audio, as well as the Ogg container format.
	Kleevah	ah
	andyo	would the audio and video be separate then?
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	andyo	I mean, could it be seperatly controlled?
	howcome	Yes, there is a separate audio element
11:23	howcome	http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video
	Aux	howcome: I think that it would be nice to have some HTML attribute inside <video> to mark one frame which will be shown like a video previewimage on YouTube
	howcome	http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#audio
	aleksanteri	<audio>, <video>, what's next?
	sil	howcome: if the user agent doesn't provide *configurable* widgets (like sliders, etc) then there barely is any markup, is there? Just a video element with a src and a type and that's it...
	profit	<smell> ?
	aleksanteri	lol
	Aux	aleksanteri: <game> (:
	Kleevah	<4d>
	aleksanteri	that'd be too great
11:24	aleksanteri	<game> i mean
	howcome	Aux: that may be a good idea. Unless you specify the last frame
	olli	Aux: thats canvas
	Aux	(:
	aleksanteri	oh yeah forgot <canvas>
	Aux	<canvas> on top <video>?
	Remco	olli: But still missing 3D support
	olli	Remco: for you yes
	sil	ah, yeah, the autoplay stuff etc in the spec, I forgot about that.
	ReWiz	instead of a selected frame to show a seperate image might do an even better job
	Remco	olli: Yeah
	nicomen	aleksanteri: what?
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11:25	aleksanteri	nicomen: a *bit* too late
	andyo	howcome: can the buffering be controlled with javascript?
	sil	ReWiz: it would, although then you have to think about how to specify it; it's not really fallback content, but it could be useful to use it as such.
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11:26	profit	I think buffering and other HW things should e transparent for browser and js..
	ReWiz	sil: not as fallback, that has to be there additionally
	howcome	andyo: you mean that the JS should specify how much buffer space should be allocated?
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	andyo	yes, and stop/start the buffering as pleased
11:27	howcome	why would you want to stop buffering?
	andyo	there's nothing worse than having to rebuffer in the middle of the movie
	sil	ReWiz: agreed, but: imagine that there's, say, a singleframe attribute that displays a frame for the video before it plays. You might well want that as fallback content for non-<video>-supporting browsers, which means that you'd have to do <video src="foo.ogg" singleframe="myvideo.png"><img src="myvideo.png"></video>, which seems a bit redundant
11:28	andyo	howcome: ok maybe not... but yeah setting the buffer size
	howcome	Perhaps your use case could be solved by giving JS access to how much has been buffered so that playing doesn't start too early?
	andyo	ah that's a good solution
11:29	sil	andyo: if you implement that sort of thing then it nails down the API a lot harder on what the "plugin" has to provide to the browser: Opera have baked Theora support in, but I can see MS implementing <video> using Media Player under the covers and just shipping Theora support. Opening up the API to JS is an impediment to getting it implemented, although that's not a showstopper.
	Aux	howcome: I just read about video on whatwg and I think that title attribute is missing
	ReWiz	howcome: sounds like streaming will soon be supported (or does it work already?)
11:30	sil	Aux: title's supported on everything, isn't it? Doesn't <video> just "inherit" it?
	howcome	aux: titles, yes we should hav titles -- make a comment!
	aleksanteri	yeah titles
	Remco	ReWiz: It was working, sort of... Opera's servers were the bottleneck
	Aux	howcome: how and where?
11:31	dantesoft	video buffer control is a must. i hate the pages with flash clips.. when i see that one i'm not interested in, i want to save the bandwidth/CPU and go to the next
	howcome	Aux: in the whatwg mailing list
	Aux	howcome: thx
	howcome	it may be that title is allowed everywhere, htough, I'd have to check
	aleksanteri	titles are a must too
11:32	howcome	datnesoft: you're saying you don't want the browser to prefetch the video?
	ReWiz	Remco: I found a different opinion: http://www.avencius.nl/?q=node/556
11:33	dantesoft	howcome: exactly. no prefetch. and ability to start buffering in mid-clip (jumping around a boring show) and ability to stop fetching.
	sil	Is fallback content designed both for agents that don't support <video> at all *and* agents that do support it but have it "turned off" or the video file isn't found, so it works like alt?
	dantesoft	i imagine a full page of those videos...
	howcome	dantesoft: stop fetching without stopping playing?
	Remco	ReWiz: The videos were still downloading here while I was watching them, so if that's not streaming...
11:34	dantesoft	howcome: yes.. i downloaded the content. i should see it if i want.
	sil	erm? theora supports streaming.
	andyo	that would sort of disallow javascript to play and stop it
	howcome	sil: good question, this has been discussed. I'm unsure how the issue was resolved -- if it has been resolved. It seems like a good idea
11:35	Kleevah	there needs to be a local cache for easy "archiving"...
		aleksanteri somehow doesn't understand a half of what's going around now
	dantesoft	Kleevah: yes
	ReWiz	dantesoft: it sounds that you just don't want an automatic prefetch - which seems to be independend of buffering during playback
11:36	sil	yeah, having fallback be displayed for all of "URL returns error", "video elements are disabled", and "I don't support video elements" would be ideal, I think (and (3) comes for free anyway :))
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	howcome	andyo: understood. We have to make sure the UI doens't get too cluttered, though. One stop button many be enough. Of course, if JavaScript gets access to all hte infor people can build their own interfaces...
	andyo	yes
11:37	aleksanteri	yeah
	aleksanteri	javascript for <video> is a must for me
	howcome	Can I convince any of you con contribute video to Wikipedia?
	ReWiz	Kleevah: local cache for easy "archiving" could contradict the (IMHO stupid) requirements of some content providers
	howcome	That is, I believe, the best way to support Ogg Theora on the web.
11:38	Kleevah	ReWiz: DRM-style?
	howcome	We also need to convince Wikipedia to start using <video>, though.
	andyo	I think it would be a good idea with a "preview frame" of the video clip, that can be set to display at a custom time/frame
	aleksanteri	and IE and FF to support <video>
	dantesoft	ReWiz: nothing prefetched. i click play. buffering. on skipping 5 minutes into the video the buffering stops and skips those 5 minutes. on stopping the video, the buffering stops. on resume video, buffering resumes only when i'm about to see new content (i.e. no new fetching)
	aleksanteri	although i don't know if IE will
	olli	and youtube to use <video>
	olli	that would help
	sil	howcome: I would do if I had appropriate video clips. We made the talk videos for last year's LugRadio Live conference available as Theora; for the videos this year I might even do a page which uses <video> to display them.
	ReWiz	Kleevah: that might be an additional requirement
11:39	Kleevah	yeah, i guess.. :\
	howcome	aleksanteri: yes, JS will be given access -- there's a whole API described in the WHAT WG spec. There should also be a simple UI available if JS is turned off of if the video element demands it...
	aleksanteri	ok
	howcome	Most of us hvave video cameras in out pockets, go out and film something!
11:40		aleksanteri has not
	andyo	I have no video camera
	dantesoft	howcome: Wikipedia has a Java control for OGG videos. it's very small. oggcodecs_0.71.0946 for direct show are also small. why is the experimental Opera video setup so biiig ?
	howcome	I've given a tech talk at Google, so the YouTube people know about it...
	howcome	Is Opera's setup so biiig?
11:41	Mitchman	Yes, I have no idea what build settings where used on it
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	howcome	sorry, I was exaggerating. A webcam should do it, htough
	ReWiz	howcome: just another idea to spread Theora on the Web, if there are just not enough browsers able to play Theora there should be a Plugin solution
	ReWiz	and I think Opera may do a pretty good job being such a plugin itself (also for non-video things)
11:42	agony	but not everyone knows how to encode to theora
	howcome	I don't think the Ogg support added much to its size. How big is the Java control?
	howcome	encoding theora is quite simple, at least on linux ffmpegtotheora
	agony	yes
	andyo
11:43	sil	ReWiz: the Fluendo Cortado Java applet is a plugin solution, although it's quite difficult from JS to detect whether the user agent supports Java without starting up Java
	howcome	ffmpeg2theora
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	aleksanteri	how long will it be until <video> is avaivable?
	olli	aleksanteri: wir
	Aux	the best way to quickly promote OGG in browsers is to make a site with a lot of newfree movies viewable online
	aleksanteri	heh
	agony	i preffer mencoder for that
	agony	,_,
	andyo	aleksanteri: andyo: Re: <video> in opera: we've been very clear that our support for <video> is experimental. Also, the spec has changed since we did our initial implementation. We'll continue talking to Mozilla and others to build support. I don't know when we will be shipping.
	howcome	<video> is available now! (in the experimental build)
11:44	aleksanteri	ah
	ReWiz	agony: I provided a small howto in my post http://my.opera.com/ResearchWizard/blog/experimental-opera-video-build-with-native-ogg-theora-support
	Kleevah	VLC should also be able to convert to theora with no problems
	dantesoft	howcome http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/cortado-ovt-stripped-0.2.2.jar is less than 200KB.
	andyo	can wmp play theora without additional codecs?
	sil	andyo: no.
	dantesoft	op950_8762_video_repack_with_lgpl_signed has some 4MB extra
11:45	howcome	part of the problem with ogg is that none of the established players support it
	sil	there is no video format, not one, that will play out of the box on Windows, Linux, and Mac.
	agony	raw avi
	andyo	hehe
	agony	:>
	Aux	(:
	aleksanteri
	andyo	true
	sil	agony: s/video format/sane video format/. Animated gifs work everywhere, too.
	Kleevah	mpeg?
	howcome	dantesoft: the extra size is not due to Ogg, it's probably due to size optimization not turned on...
	Aux	mpeg, yep
	howcome	apng
	agony	but the sound is not so good in gif :>
11:46		aleksanteri has never heard of apng
	sil	MPEG isn't supported out-of-the-box on Linux because mpeg is patent-encumbered.
	andyo	but what I mean is.. if you open an ogg file in wmp.. does it download the codecs itself?
	Kleevah	agony: gotto sync it with the .mid...
	agony	hehe
	sil	andyo: mine doesn't. It tries and fails.
	andyo	ok
	howcome	http://wiki.mozilla.org/APNG_Specification
	sil	howcome: agreed that theora has a problem of support but then...what's the alternative? Baking WMV format into Opera?
11:47	agony	never!
	sil	agony: precisely.
	aleksanteri	never ever!
	sil	plus, this is back to the formats argument and not the markup argument
	Aux	howcome: maybe your webdevs should make video-blogging section for trying out <video> support?
	howcome	sil: no, there is no universal format to fall back on. We need to establish a baseline format.
	Aux	khm, about conversion. i just thought about online service for converting video to ogg
11:48	ReWiz	Kleevah: I just gave VLC a try to convert to Theora - it crashed. Though it should be possible but it is not really easier.
	howcome	aux: yes, online conversion is helpful -- didn't someone do this already?
	profit	In fact, WMV would be pretty good (especially in comopression). If we will just leave alone the fact it is its MS-made..
	Kleevah	oh
	sil	howcome: which is why the whatwg discussion was so frustrating, since Apple don't seem interested in any baseline format that they don't already support.
11:49	aleksanteri	profit: never WMV :/
	howcome	sil: it seems that none of the big vendors are interested in adding support for new formats. Their arguments make sense to some people.
	andyo	hm,... a video-element could be used to make video conferancing relatively easy on the web, am I right?
11:50	howcome	sil: The only way to change their attitude is to make sure there's video content out there!
	Kleevah	ReWiz: i just tried to convert a small mpeg clip and that worked fine.. :\
	howcome	(in Ogg Theora, that is)
	Aux	howcome: i'll try make this online conversion tool next week - right now i have too much workto complete
	howcome	Kleevah: did you use VLC?
	Kleevah	yeah
	howcome	How do you tell VLC to output?
11:51	nicomen	hm there are some question in the Pony queue, anyone going to show them?
	sil	howcome: true. Chicken and egg, but I agree with you entirely. Wikipedia will help; archive.org as well, perhaps? The BBC would be great (although they're trying to get Dirac off the ground; perhaps loko at Dirac as baseline just because the BBC will be pushing it hard 2 years from now?)
	Kleevah	on the bottom part of the open dialog there is a stream/save option
	sil	howcome: File > Wizard in VLC takes you through output options
	howcome	any way to specify it on the commant line?
	Kleevah	yeah
11:52	agony	I think mencoder or ffmpeg is better for that
	Kleevah	10sec
	agony	always had problems with vlc
	howcome	sil: I think we should keep the door open for Dirac, yes
11:53	Kleevah	howcome: :sout=#transcode{vcodec=theo,vb=1024,scale=1,acodec=mpga,ab=192,channels=2}:duplicate{dst=std{access=file,mux=ogg,dst="output.ogg"}}
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	aleksanteri	hi grafio
	grafio	hi
	aleksanteri	a *bit* late
	howcome	I think the format conversion issue can be handled. I think all technical issues can be handled. But we need to teach web users about the need for open standards. Again and again it seems
	aleksanteri	howcome: impossible task
	dantesoft	howcome: are there some issues with OGG regarding resolution, FPS, etc? re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NTSC-PAL-SECAM.svg
	Aux	howcome: i'm wondering now if browsers like IE will have plug-in then will plug-in be able to determine Z-index of video tag? or maybe someattribute like Flash's wparam will be needed?
	howcome	Kleevah: you're Kleevah!
	andyo	it should be taught in schools
	Kleevah
11:55	andyo	instead of german
	andyo
	agony	what?
	agony	:>
11:56	howcome	Dantesoft: I don't know about any issues
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	ReWiz	howcome: what I just read about it Dirac seems to have some strong technical advantages while Theora tools have grown further so far
11:57	howcome	Aux: one of the benefits of decoding video natively is that we can use things like CSS with its z-index to control the presentation. That's harder to do whey you have to go through a plugin interface.
	dantesoft	howcome http://daringfireball.net/2007/04/wee_bit_more_on_aac OGG is "an ugly patent lawsuit waiting to happen."
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	Aux	howcome: I understand, but what for first-time usage? i don't think that MS will implement support next week
11:58	howcome	ReWiz: yes, the dirac people seem clever
	howcome	Aux: no, MS will not add support until they're forced to.
	sil	dantesoft: that's been Apple's argument on the whatwg list. "The consensus" that Ogg *must* violate some patents is in no way a consensus. Apple certainly believe it; whether others do is a different question entirely.
	aleksanteri	howcome: that's why they suck
11:59	Aux	sorry guys, I need to go. thanks for nice and useful chat!
	howcome	Perhaps we should start Acid3 with a <video> element?
	sil	howcome: do the whole test as a video.
	aleksanteri	lol
		<- Aux has disconnected (Quit: Infected...)
	andyo	I have to go to.. Kleevah: keep a log for me..
12:00	dantesoft	stick out the tongue of all is a-o-k
	andyo	thanks for good answers howcome .. bye
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	howcome	Great to talk to y'all, I have to run, too!
	aleksanteri	19:00 ^__^
	Orcinus
	aleksanteri	bye Håkon
	sil	thanks, howcome. Useful chat!
	dantesoft	cheers
	ReWiz	howcome: thanks for being here
	aleksanteri	btw Håkon how has your day been otherwise?
12:01	aleksanteri	just a side q
	Orcinus	I had questions in Pony yet...
	babox	bye Håkon, thanks